Kat Courtney Psychedelic Plant Medicine Shaman - Pt1
Kathy: [00:00:00] Hi guys. Welcome back to the podcast. I really do appreciate you taking the time to come and hang out with me, and I really appreciate all of the encouragement and great feedback that I've received. So, thank you so much for joining me this week.
I'm very excited to introduce you to my guest, Kat Courtney.
I have to admit that this week's episode is one that I'm releasing with a little bit of, I don't know, maybe personal trepidation because of the subject matter. There are some of you, who may not know that I have an interest in and have done a lot of research and exploration in the realm of psychedelic plant medicines.
If you don't know what those are, I'm speaking of things like ayahuasca, magic mushrooms or psilocybin, cannabis, all of the psychotropic plant space.
I've done a lot of research and not a ton of personal imbibing and exploration, although I did have [00:01:00] a very interesting plant medicine journey with Ayahuasca several years ago in Costa Rica, which I do not talk about much on this episode. I don't go into it, but I will in the future, just in case you're curious. It was quite a harrowing experience, on many levels and for many reasons.
But this week is just an in-depth conversation with Kat. This is part one of a two-part episode. Um, and so I thought I would just give you a teeny bit of background and a little bit of context for this conversation.
Kat is known as the Afterlife Coach. She is an enthusiastic advocate and passionate messenger for reverent and safe plant medicine experiences. She works as a ceremony guide and a psychedelic integration coach, and is a certified death doula. Which I'll explain a teeny bit more about, but I met Kat a while ago, about seven or eight years ago.
I had read an [00:02:00] article that she wrote while I was in the midst of my exploration and research. I came across an article that she wrote and she seemed so knowledgeable and level headed in her approach to these powerful plants.
I emailed her and we ended up in some dialogue via email and then subsequently on the phone.
And then we actually even met over breakfast one day. We planned a meeting. She was about five or six hours from me, so I drove down and we sat down and had a meal together. And I just had such a heart connection with her, and she felt so comfortable and so knowledgeable and just open-hearted and real.
Despite the bizarre, wild nature of this topic and these plants and the psychedelic medicine space, I felt she was so grounded and so intelligent and present and just really together, that she has come to be known to me as a trusted ally.
So I've [00:03:00] turned to her for times of counseling and coaching and we had a little bit of interaction around my Ayahuasca journey. That's a story for another time.
For now, I just wanna introduce you to Kat a little bit. Her wild and beautiful ride with plant medicine began way back in 2006 when she landed as a 30 something sort of LA film industry, gaming industry, you know, pink sparkly, high top, I don't wanna say bimbo, but she did use that word in describing herself in some of her stories of her beginnings, but she landed in the Peruvian jungle to begin her healing journey.
And at the time she had been diagnosed bipolar with bouts of destructive depression and anxiety so intense that it landed her in the hospital multiple times. Her first journey with Ayahuasca ignited in her, an awareness that despite what doctors had told her, she would in fact become a stable, happy, [00:04:00] and strong woman.
Within a couple of ceremonial cycles, which is about seven plant ceremonies, she was ready to devote her entire life to the study of Shamanism.
Kat sat with Ayahuasca, and if you're not familiar with Ayahuasca, it's become a pretty popular topic these days, but if you're not familiar, it is a plant, it's a vine that grows in the jungle of South America.
It has psychotropic properties when prepared a specific way, and it's often mixed with other plants into a powerful brew. It's like a tea that you drink in a ceremonial setting. It's something that's been used by the indigenous people of South America for millennia.
They use it for healing, mental wellness, and reuniting people really with their core selves and their souls. And it's now making its way into mainstream Western alternative medicine. Although Kat talks a little bit about why do we use the term alternative when it's an original medicine.
[00:05:00] Anyway, she ended up training for almost 12 years in the jungle, off and on, but with a seasoned carrier of the medicine. And she drank in hundreds and hundreds of plant ceremonies. She's completed 22 Master Plant dietas. Master Plant dietas are time spent with a plant, connecting with its consciousness through, well, being with it, but also imbibing that plant.
Many years ago, the term Afterlife Coach came into Kat's awareness during a journey with Ayahuasca and the medicine urged her to create a platform for coaching to assist seekers in the integration of powerful plant medicines.
It was a discipline that was almost unheard of at the time, but she took the plunge and launched full throttle into the integration space. So her work for a long time has been helping people to navigate the crazy experiences they might have on a medicine journey and helping them to make soul sense of the messages they [00:06:00] receive, the visions they saw.
And now Kat actually pours medicine and serves in a shamanic role in places like Peru and Costa Rica many times a year, and also leads these master plant dietas, both in person and remotely, and she assists with the preparation and integration of psychedelics and major life events through her role as a Shamanic life coach.
She received a Death Doula certification from the Conscious Dying Institute. So she creates a ceremonial experience for those who are transitioning. She's an expert at guiding people through the shadow work that emerges from patterns of destruction and darkness, and the path of understanding and embracing death.
She's also the author of the Plant Medicine Mystery School, Volume One: The Superhero Healing Powers of Psychotropic Plants. Her book is released by Metanoia Press, now available on Amazon. It's a fantastic read. We talk about that on the show and that this is the first of any books that she has committed to write on [00:07:00] behalf of the plants.
We have a lively and playful conversation. She and I explore many topics. But central to all of this is the concept of play as it relates to emotional and mental wellbeing in and through creativity, especially in Kat's area of expertise, the shamanic and healing arts.
We discuss the difficult rite of passage of losing a beloved fur baby and the magical beauty and playfulness of Dr. Seuss Trees to help us heal.
This segment, spoiler alert, includes the sad news of the passing of Captain Jack Sparrow. No, not Johnny Depp, but the original pirate, our beloved kitty cat, captain Jack, my co-host and companion of many years.
We discuss the ethics of playfulness, amidst a world full of pain and suffering.
Kat's book and her 17 year journey she took to write it.
Her fascinating relationship with these beings we call plants and how they've taught her so many things, but mostly: Awe.
And yes, yet again, a little about woo boners and how weird it is to hold them.
Okay, that [00:08:00] that does sound a little weirder than it is. So tune in anyway. You'll be okay. How to hold them in a world that pretty much rolls their collective eyes at the Woo.
We talk about collecting tools that help us through the hard stuff and how pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional.
Kat talks about the plants, the nervous system, and how these powerful allies should not be considered a cure-all or a quick fix.
Her harrowing story of doing jail time and how her years of working with the plants helped her use even that to find internal liberation.
And her huge wake up call around what's happening with the decriminalization movement in this country. It ain't as wonderful as you might think or hope. If you're under the impression it might make it safer for everyone to access these medicines, think again. Kat explains why. Spoiler: it may involve profiteering. Hmm. Imagine that.
She discusses how the plants are gonna save the planet. Remember: superheroes.
Who and what are we really? What is this human experience about? Paradox anyone?
We explore ways to get over creative blocks. Getting out of the way of the [00:09:00] muse so the magic can come through, and the spirit of money. Spoiler: it ain't an evil one.
So if you've got stories of limitation and poverty of self worth, well, we've got some answers in here. So join us for the ride, it's a fun one.
I should say, it's important for you to understand that first of all, the subject matter in this episode is of an adult nature, so you may want to listen to that with earphones on and that all the content is for informational, educational, entertainment and harm's reduction purpose only.
Permission to Play, Kathy Martens and our affiliates, I don't know who we are. But me anyway, and the guests are not doctors, mental health professionals or legal advisors.
Any information shared is not meant to treat, diagnose, or claim cures for any physical conditions or mental illness. There are serious contraindications for some plant medicines when combined with various health conditions and pharmaceutical medications.
The views of the guests are not necessarily the views and opinions of Permission to Play. [00:10:00] There are sensitive and possibly triggering topics in this episode, including emotional and mental trauma and suicide.
Please make your mental health a top priority please do your own research and take action to be informed.
Remember that you are 100% responsible for your actions and the subsequent consequences. Psychedelics and sacred plant medicines are not for everyone, even when done legally and in a safe and appropriate setting.
With all of that said, let's jump into our fun ride of a conversation. This is part one of a two-part episode. Enjoy Kat Courtney.
Kat: Hi sweetheart.
Kathy: How have you been?
Kat: I mean, it's been the hardest year of my life, and at the same time, very rewarding. Yeah. Um, I'm great now. I'm in the rebirth part after the death, but uh, yeah, it's been quite a rite of passage.
Kathy: Well, I wanna get into that at, [00:11:00] at some point For sure. If, if you're up for it.
Kat: I'm up for anything.
Kathy: I love that about you. I aspire to be like you, up for anything.
Kat: Well there, I'm sure there are limits, but in terms of talking, yeah. Nothing's off the table. You can take us wherever you want.
Kathy: Awesome. Thank you. That's awesome. I was thinking this morning about, well, when did I meet Kat? And it's been, I figured it was 2016. So it's been a minute. Yeah.
Kat: Yeah. Time I have no concept of, but I do remember where in, in my timeline I was, so that had to be a long time ago. We've evolved a lot together. Yeah.
Kathy: Together and apart. It's been fun to watch you, grow and go through some of the fun adventures you've been going through, and I love that you're sharing it with the world, what you're doing. It's marvelous. When I met you, you told me you were done drinking the medicine.
Kat: Yes, I was. And I meant it back then.
Kathy: Yes, you did. You absolutely did. It's been so fun to watch how you...[00:12:00] you just live in your truth and you don't apologize for yourself and your experience, and you are comfortable in your skin, which for me gives permission to everybody you cross paths with. So I really appreciate that about you.
Kat: It's something I had to work really hard for. So it means a lot to get that feedback. Because before I met Ayahuasca and was on a spiritual journey, it wasn't that way. It was so uncomfortable being whatever it is that I thought that I was. And isn't that something we want everyone to have? Is to wake up every day going, I get to be this person.
What? Amazing. You know, like we'd live in a different world if we all got to feel that way.
Kathy: From time to time I do imagine it. Although I have to say it's been a little tricky lately.
Kat: Yeah. We have all the evidence of the opposite.
This is my kitty
Kathy: Hi. fur baby. We say goodbye to our fur baby on Saturday.
Kat: Sweetheart. I'm so sorry. That [00:13:00] is not a fun rite of passage when we say goodbye to our little angels.
Kathy: It was frickin' hard. It was hard, hard, hard, hard. Still flowing in and out of that. It's gonna be a minute. I think.
Kat: Such a strong place in our lives.
Kathy: God. He was with us for almost 21 years, Cap'n Jack.
Kat: Oh, oh, you've talked about Cap'n Jack before. Oh.
Kathy: Hmm. Yeah. That was hard. I kept inviting him to just, you know, if he needed to go to go.
But his body just kept hanging on, hanging on, barely. And then the day came when it was like, oh no buddy. You know, it's time.
So that was hard. But we brought him home and he's now out in our garden and we planted a beautiful tree that's, um, it's from the continent of Africa and it's like a...
It's a conifer that grows like a Dr. Seuss thing. Like it just does this crazy, you know... They're pretty spindly, and then they have these long draping little fingers of needles that come down. And that was our Christmas tree last year. And it was, you know, only this tall and it had like three little balls on it. And that was it.
But it wanted to be outside, [00:14:00] so I was looking around saying, where does Jack wanna be? And then all of a sudden I thought, he wants to be with this tree. So he, we had our little memory, our little momento.
Kat: What's the tree called?
Kathy: You know, you, I knew you were gonna ask me that. I'll have, to, I'll have to email you that I can't remember. It's, it's a, an interesting name. Um, I'll, I'll email it to you cuz they're an amazing tree. Um, beautiful, amazing tree. Yeah.
Yeah. Kat. So it's Cedrus atlantica. The Atlantic. Atlantis. Cedrus atlantica okay, hold on. So Kat. Yeah, it's the Cedrus atlantica, or the Atlas Cedar, which is a species of tree in the pine family, native to Morocco and also Algeria.
Yeah. I had to give that a few seconds thought so I could remember all of that, but no, I looked, I looked that up. I just, I read it. I, I read that.
And you guys, Kat's probably gonna go sit by one and like have a conversation with it, and then they'll develop a relationship and then she'll, you know, [00:15:00] ask, could I have just a little taste?
And the tree will be like, yeah, man. Totally. And she'll, she'll taste it and maybe eat a little bit of it, or, and then she'll have, she might have a diet. That's the stuff she does. You know, they have these conversations, she has this thing, this relationship with these plants. So anyway.
Kathy: and they, they grow in these crazy shapes and they just spread out all over and they're very whimsical and, you know, fun.
Kat: It goes with our theme of play.
Kathy: Yes.
Kat: Even letting the passing of a beloved fur baby bring us into permission to play with that too. Like, it's okay. That's so profound.
Kathy: Yes. How do we justify playing when there's so much suffering and violence and fear and conflict going on in the world?
Kat: I kind of wanna answer that in the reverse. How do we justify not playing. Because there is so much heaviness and suffering and darkness. Yet, I think it's our job as individuals to, as Ayahuasca says to me all the [00:16:00] time, be the light, you be it. Because I've been in, in that portal so many times going, where is the light and having it put back on me.
It's like, you have it, bring it, shine it.
So that permission to play even in the midst of all of the very obvious suffering and pain, it's like we gotta claim that. And that those are the times we need it most. Right? So bring it.
Kathy: Yeah. I love that. And I, want to explore that a little bit more. I'm, we'll probably have pretty circuitous conversation cuz that's how my brain works. So hopefully you don't get too lost.
But firstly, and, uh, I just wanna talk for a second or longer minutes it could be about, um, about your book because, um, this is Kat's lovely book Plant Medicine Mystery School Volume One, which, I'm excited. When I saw Volume One on there, I was like, ooh, we all know what that means. So I, funny, funny, when this first came out, I bought the audiobook first and so I got to listen to your voice cuz I love to [00:17:00] just be in the presence of your voice.
And, I devoured it I think in two days. I think two sittings and um, And then I subsequently also ordered this because I like to, as you can see, mark stuff.
Your book, plant Medicine Mystery School, Volume One, and the subtitle, the Super Hero Healing Powers of Psychotropic Plants.
But it, it really, truly is your deep dive into. Well, I don't, I don't know if I'd call it a deep dive into your experience, per se, because I feel like we get, we get some of your experience, your background, but it certainly is a deep dive into your relationship with these amazing plants.
I found the whole thing delightful and wonderful read. Easy to read, easy to digest, very accessible.
I appreciate that very much. And so I think it's truly a book for seekers and people who are super curious about the plant medicine space. And I feel like it's written with such authenticity, from a space of deep, [00:18:00] personal and real and balanced experience. And so I feel when I'm, when I read this book that I'm with a very trusted guide.
So for seekers, for sure. I mean, I think anybody could read it, but really, like, I wish I had had this book when I was, I'm glad I have it now cuz I still haven't finished my exploration. So we'll go into that too.
Kat spends time, speaking about her own personal experiences, what brought her to this sacred plant space. But then she has a whole chapter in here where she really does a deep dive into her personal understanding of each of how many plants do you explore here?
Kat: The major entheogens, basically. It's the big psychotropic ones. Not all of them. There are several that aren't listed in there because I don't have a personal relationship with them. But, know, mushrooms, ayahuasca, huachuma, iboga, like all of the big guns are in there. Cannabis...
Kathy: And so she does a beautiful job of introducing us to each one and sharing some very amazing insights into their [00:19:00] aspects and what they have revealed to her of themselves. And so I found that, um, super fascinating and just a lovely introduction to them.
So do you wanna say anything first off, about writing this book? The experience as an artist and a writer of writing this book?
Kat: So it's been almost 20 years since I first drank Ayahuasca. And it was in that first cycle that she threw a bunch of books at me in an image of like, you're gonna write about me. And I remember saying like, I don't even know if I'm going to drink you again, let alone be your like marketing director, so... Because it was quite a, a portal, right?
But it took me a long time to birth that book. You know, about 17 years or so. which is fine, right? Like it takes what it takes, that process.
Thank you for the feedback because that's what I wanted it to be, is an homage to the relationships. Cuz if I had to say I stand for one core thing, it's the relationships that we forged with these plants to treat them with [00:20:00] that intimacy and reverence.
So that's was my approach to birthing it is like, how can I, through my lens of a messenger, really honor how magical all of these beings are. And you emphasize something important, it's through my lens. So people may experience the plants an entirely different way, and they are equally valid in their relationship because they're, the plants are very dynamic, as are we.
So it appears in all kinds of different ways, but I tried to get the essence of who they were as best I could express through my lens. Because I do love them so much. They're some of my best friends in the world. So it was an honor to get to be their messenger. They don't have voices like we do.
Kathy: Right. That is such an interesting perspective for me because when I first learned about psychedelics, I just thought of them as substances, not beings. And so you really introduced me to that concept, and it's not one that I grasp easily. And hearing you speak of that is, it's a, it's an interesting challenge [00:21:00] for, for, it was for me.
I'm much more embracing it now, But I think in our culture too, many of us don't have that experience. We think of them as inanimate o objects. We don't think of them as beings. And so it's a little stretch. But I suppose once you've imbibed and spent time, it's a different story.
Kat: Totally. I mean, I think we can feel that with our relationship with nature as a whole. Like, if you grew up in the city and you never spent the night listening to the consciousness, the energies, the sounds of the forest, how would you know? You would think, oh, it's just, it's just a tree. Like there's nothing there.
But when you meet them, when you actually get to like, have that experience of their consciousness, it's undeniable, you know? And I've had a lot of skeptics come to ayahuasca like, uh, plants don't have consciousness. And they'll come out of ceremony going, somebody was talking to me and it felt female.
I'm like, yeah, that's her. Yeah. And it's neat to see that limitation shattered because it's so special for us to get to [00:22:00] relate to nature in that way, you know? But of course we have skepticism. Like it seems weird.
Kathy: Well, for sure in our, in our, in our Western culture for sure. But I'll tell you, you are a force in my life that has opened up my mind and I should, I should back up two steps. I had an Ayahuasca experience, which you know of that I have not shared here, and I, but I will a little bit, but this is about you, but I just wanna give some context.
I always say i, I, I feel like, and I say it with tongue in cheek, but that I kind of failed Ayahuasca 101 because I had such a rough time. .
I had a rough time. I, I didn't, I mean, I sparred with her instead of like letting her come in. So, um, anyways, so I won't go there right now, but what I will say is you have brought for me such an appreciation of at least being willing to play with the idea of these consciousness, these consciousnesses being like a thing.
And as I have allowed [00:23:00] that playful space to open up for me, there has been reciprocation. I mean, it's been bizarre, like sitting out on my deck and looking at my sage plant and trying to open up like, hello? Hello? Do we, can you understand? Can, can you help me understand, you know, and just sit and hold a leaf, you know, hold it and caress it and feel it and just try to stay open and playful about what could that open up for me?
Take a little taste and, you know, just sit with it. And then that started to expand to my cat, my Jack. He, before he was a pet, then he became a being for me, a an intelligence, a consciousness, not just a pet. And it changed my relationship with him. It's allowed me now to mourn the fact that a friend is gone, you know?
So it's just been an expanding experience to get, to witness your experience of those various ways of understanding consciousness.
Kat: Thank you for sharing. That means so much because what you're describing is it [00:24:00] changes how we relate to our whole world. And seeing it with awe, that maybe the trees, our pets, everything is looking back at us with that awe. That same consciousness, and what a way to be in the world instead of blinders and like, you know, all that mental energy that thinks it knows what's going on and doesn't. So especially the spirit of play involves that awe, that curiosity.
Kathy: it would be a different world. If we had that kind of awakening on a larger scale.
Kat: Yeah. Well, it's happening. It's just slow, Kathy. It's really slow.
Kathy: Painfully slow sometimes.
Kat: Yeah. But it is happening cuz it's happening to you and I. So it's happening all over the world. It's just that it's not gonna be on the cover of CNN. "Woman Looks Through Lens of Awe at Sage Plant." Like, wouldn't that be great if it was... but
Kathy: Was front page [00:25:00] news. Yeah.
Kat: Yeah, I would totally read that. Yeah.
Kathy: It's funny because my husband and I joke all the time about how, coming out of a religious deep dive religious background, and completely coming out of a Christian religion and church and all of that. And then sw swinging now more toward a different kind of spirituality that just is, it's so much more expansive and it includes so much.
And yet I still, I still have eye rolls at some things that I hear, you know, when I, I, you know, I, I make fun of things that are, you know, New Agey or whatever at times. And then other times I tell people this, I, half the time I walk around with a woo boner, you know what I mean? It's like, oh, you know, like I, it's like have this duality about it.
It's like part of me can joke about it and, you know, think it's silly. And other parts of me just like have those moments where all of a sudden I, so yeah, the awe hits and you go, wow. Holy cow. Maybe I better have a little more reverence or [00:26:00] something, you know? So it's, it's an interesting journey back to spirituality.
Kat: Being human means we get to embody the experience of the separateness and the skepticism of all the woowoo. And the experience of the woo being real. And we're in both, and we go back and forth of like, that's totally BS and that's totally real. I still have the same skeptic mind I did 20 years ago.
That's like, are you really talking to a plant, like really, you know, And to witness that and the depth of my knowingness at the same time, it's a lot to hold. Those totally polarizing experiences.
Kathy: Yes. It is a lot to hold. Thank you for saying that, because there are times that I feel that, that paradox is, is like almost more than my nervous system can stand. So, you know, learning to integrate those two things. And that's where I, and let me ask you, do you, how do you feel playfulness, maybe feeds, or what role could playfulness there?
Kat: The ability to [00:27:00] laugh at ourselves in witnessing that interplay, that dance, it makes or breaks the experience of suffering. Like you can either go, oh my God, like I'm all of it, and this makes no sense. And like recoil in a pit of torturous suffering. Or you can go I'm so doing that thing. Right.
Just the lightness that comes in. Because we're all doing it. That's, that's the amazing thing. Kathy, as you look around and we're all recoiling into shame and then out into expansion and like, we're doing the same thing, so we can't possibly be doing it wrong if everyone is doing it the same way.
So to giggle at it, to be playful in it, like humanness is crazy. You know, that keeps me from going nuts. It really does.
Kathy: Bonkers. Yeah.
Interesting that you say that because I think, like, I started this podcast because of my struggle as a creative, as a person, but I'm, I'm kind of, [00:28:00] creativity for me is such a, a core of who, well, I think it's a core of who we all are, honestly. But it's something I identify really strongly with.
So, and, and that's who I love, hanging out with people who identify that way. And so made the podcast for people who identify with their creativity, but also struggle, you know, with the, with the shadow and just walking in the darkness sometimes. To where you feel so separated from your creativity and, and stuck and not able to move.
So I, you know, I'm just trying to figure this shit out and, well, just trying to figure out how can I play more and think less.
Kat: But you nailed it right there is playing isn't mental.
And so what I have learned from the plants is anything that we can do to get out of our heads is magical.
And play brings us back into our inner child. Like that permission just to be goofy and it doesn't have to make sense. And we're creative in our expression.
So that's it. It's, it's the ability to [00:29:00] navigate out of our heads. Which is the core of the spiritual journey, cuz none of a spiritual aha happens here. It happens here. like, Ah, we gotta feel it. So that's it.
Kathy: Yeah. We were talking about like how life is such a dance, you know, between these crazy poles. And there are moments when you're in the shadowy realm where you just, like, for me, all's I want is to not feel that anymore.
And yet we do amass tools, to help us through those times, right? So what place do all of these tools and modalities play? Like for instance, where you dabble, so not dabble where you live, in the plant medicine space; what is the dance between working with these plants, working with the tools that we have and being with where we are?
Kat: Yeah. What comes in is what we were talking about just a bit ago of, of being the light. So the tools bring us back into the laughter and the light of it so that we can [00:30:00] be with that when we are in resistance to any aspect of our journey, which by the way, we resist the light as much as we resist the darkness, right?
Of like, oh, it's too bright. I'm not worthy. Like whatever stories we have around that. Um, so we resist across the board when we can drop that, which is what our tools help us with, our relationships with the plants, like breathing modality, all the different tools I have to get through a rough night on the medicine as an example.
When those tools bring me back into the place of knowing everything's okay, then I can be with it. And I'm like, huh, because that's, that's where we get duped is everything is not okay. Like, I'm in trouble. I'm gonna go crazy, I'm gonna die. Whatever that primal fear is telling us and our tools bring that softening of like, is that really true? No, it's not true.
It's not what's happening. Everything's okay. The everything's okay space is where it's like, oh, I can have fun now. I can enjoy this. Even if it's difficult, I can still say yes to it. [00:31:00] That's what it's about to me. It's just saying yes to what's happening.
Kathy: Yes seems to be a big, a big key.
Kat: Yeah. That's our free will. We get to say yes or no to what's happening, don't we? And No hurts. It's, it's suffering. That's it. Pain is like, what do they say in Buddhism? Pain is is necessary. Suffering is optional.
It's like the pain is what it is, but if we relate to it out of a place of resistance and "no" then it's awful. But if we're like, oh, I stubbed my toe. Okay, yes to this experience. Like we can actually bring play to even the deepest, like wounds that we go through.
That's how powerful we are, is to bring light no matter what is happening.
Kathy: Yeah. And it does seem, and I keep bringing it back to Western culture, is that we don't have much tolerance, for pain.
Kat: We don't have tools to deal with it. like, I think that's the, the issue in the mental health space in our world is like we find somebody that is injured [00:32:00] mentally. We don't give them tools, we give them pharmaceuticals that suppress them all the more.
Like, this is not healing. And it just shows in our culture, our fear of our emotions, our ineptness with them, our lack of tools that we're just like, can we press pause and make these go away?
Let's do that.
Whereas the plant medicines do the opposite of, let's feel everything that sounds great, and here are some tools by which to do that. Yeah. It's a disease of our culture that we don't trust our emotions.
Kathy: Yeah, yeah. We can't tolerate them.
Kat: We think something's wrong cuz we're feeling, but that's what we are. Yeah, exactly.
Kathy: Yeah.
I'm gonna share a fun story.
I've been contemplating a lot and thinking about this conversation that we are going to have. And then, two days ago in comes this headline into my inbox about how Ayahuasca Destroyed My Nervous System. It's a chat between Irene Lyon and a young man from, I don't know, he's from South America somewhere. I don't remember if he said, but he, um, had an experience with [00:33:00] Ayahuasca that was challenging.
Like really challenging. I don't wanna go too deeply into that, but I, unless you do. But Irene Lyon is a, she's an expert in somatic practices for nervous system regulation and healing.
Not just regulation, but healing and the release of nervous system trauma. And I have found her work to be incredible. And so when I saw this headline of Ayahuasca Destroyed My Nervous System, I was like, oh dear, what, what are they gonna talk about? You know, are they gonna bash Ayahuasca? And I don't feel that they did at all. I felt it was quite a respectful conversation.
So I've been listening to a lot of podcasts just to get a feel for podcasts, and I was listening to a new guy and I listened two days ago to his very first episode, and then yesterday tuned into his most recent episode, and he was interviewing Gabor Mate a somatic practitioner .
One of Irene's mentors is Gabor Mate, and he mentioned that one of his biggest insights came during an Ayahuasca ceremony. [00:34:00] So I just thought it was so funny that Irene, with her cautionary tales about, um, she wasn't saying no, she, but she had some strong cautionary... And then to have her mentor talking about how he, how he had one of his greatest breakthroughs there.
So I would love to have you, like, let's bounce around in the nervous system space, as it relates to working with the plants, working with our own healing, what knowledge you may have around somatic practices and the body.
So if you're not familiar with this term, we keep tossing around somatics. I know it sounds like some kind of, I don't know, popery or, or a spice blend or something. But what it really is is, a term. that's pretty common to the wellness practice space. It describes any practice that uses the mind body connection to help you kind of survey your internal self, listen to the signals that your body sends about areas of pain or discomfort or imbalance. And then these practices allow you to access more information about the ways you hold onto your experiences in your [00:35:00] body. So somatic experts believe that this knowledge combined with natural movement and touch can help you work toward healing and wellness Somatics.
It may also be good on chicken breasts or maybe fish.
I think it may also be a type of blender.
Kat: Irene's headline is very common, and I'm glad to have people who are experts like her in the space, sound this alarm, this warning. Because what's happening with psychedelics and plant medicines as a whole is they're sort of being treated as a next best cure-all. Like, you know, come get your miracle.
Like take this medicine and everything's gonna be all better. Right. It's not true. It's a really reckless reflection of the fact that these medicines amplify what's happening in us so we can understand them, but it could get a lot worse before it gets better.
And that's the reality of it. And as you mentioned, we don't have a lot of tools, if any, most of us, to work with the intensity of our emotions to [00:36:00] trust the energy in our bodies.
And so that resistance, that story of something's wrong, short circuits our nervous system, and you add plant medicine on top of that, and it's a recipe for really intense trauma, actually. It can cause more trauma, not less.
So I encourage people if they're new to the plant medicine space and they're called to it, to first have some somatic tools. Have some breath work, have EFT, some tapping.
Kathy: Yeah, there's another one. EFT. So EFT it stands for Emotional Freedom Technique. It's an alternative treatment for physical pain, emotional distress. It's, it's a form of tapping. It focuses on tapping on 12 meridian points of the body and supposed to help relieve symptoms of a negative experience or emotion.
It's referred to as just tapping or psychological acupressure. Um, I, I've used it before and I've found it very helpful for some things. Um, it's also an RPG [00:37:00] game online Escape from Tarkov, but I don't think that that would be helpful in the middle of an Ayahuasca ceremony. So just tap.
Kat: Have some breath work, have EFT, some tapping. Like have some things that you can bring in to the psychedelic space that supports you. Because what we wanna do is tell our bodies everything's okay. Everything is safe. But if we don't have some ways to do that, somatically, it's not done just here. We can't just think our way to a place of a calm nervous system.
The nervous system's like, dude, we're under threat. Like, I don't care what you're telling me. So we wanna have tools.
And it betters the odds that our experience with plant medicines are gonna be healing not traumatizing.
Cuz they're not here to fix us. They're here to wake us up. And it is the fast tracking to consciousness, which can be really intense. It's like, it's like going to the moon without first training to be an astronaut.
You wouldn't do that, would you? Like that sounds crazy. So to have some tools, like it's not really happening. People are [00:38:00] just showing up and like trying mushrooms and, and I, I see it all the time as like, I tried Ayahuasca at home.
Like, why would you do that ? Like, you know, like, and now I'm traumatized. Well, yeah. And it's not the medicine's fault. It's your fault for being ignorant and disrespectful cuz this is, this is potent stuff.
So we need to not blame the medicines for the fact that we're not yet knowledgeable about how to work with them properly.
Kathy: Yeah. I was a little, uh, kind of taken aback by the headline cuz that, oh, let's click bait and, you know, they're just gonna bash plant medicines. It's not what ended up being said, but on the other end, I love your take. It's like, well, I'm kind of glad I did that because now people will click on it just out of curiosity and then... yeah.
So I'm sure your perspective is the plants can take care of themselves, you know...
But, I love it that you couch it that way because I have heard much touting of just go do an Ayahuasca ceremony and you'll be healed forever. Or just come to a therapeutic heroic mushroom [00:39:00] ceremony and it'll rewire everything right now, and then all your problems will be solved.
Kat: No quick fix. But it shows again, the disease of our culture in thinking something external is gonna do it for us. The process of feeling and healing.
It just doesn't work that way. It's like we get to do it ourselves, not have to, we get to, but like it is kind of innocent and naive to think, ah, a cup of Ayahuasca is gonna make my trauma go away. No, it's gonna give you an opportunity to feel it and face it and work with it in a deeper way.
It will move through, but we don't know if that takes one ceremony or a hundred lifetimes. We don't know. There's no guarantee. So I appreciate anybody who's willing to speak about the medicines reverently, but also honestly that they aren't quick fixes.
Yes, miracles can happen, but we create them. They're not just given to us. And you know, the light switch goes on and I'm all better. Like, no.
Kathy: Much work to be done.
Kat: So much work.
Kathy: And I think if there's, if it, if there is something to, and I [00:40:00] don't, haven't landed fully on my understanding of this, so much searching... But if there's lifetimes to heal, then yeah, that could take some time, you know.
Kat: If it took us lifetimes to get to where we're at... I'm not a math major, but like, it seems like it could take some time to heal from that. Yeah.
Kathy: Yeah. So piggybacking then on the idea of responsibility, reverence, respect, approaching these modalities like as much of a grownup as we can be, coming to them, maybe talk a little bit about your experience this last year. Was this last year, right?
Kat: It was. Yeah. Kicked off in April.
Kathy: Okay then, I was reading your last blog post about that experience and your take on that and how it has informed your thoughts about the legalization of these plant medicines and how those things all work together.
Kat: Yeah, thank you. Yeah. No, no. But uh, the second thing is way more important than my personal story.
But [00:41:00] in a nutshell, I got arrested earlier this year, uh, charged with intent to possess a package of Ayahuasca. The feds didn't touch it. Just they don't, uh, as far as I know, there's never been a federal case with Ayahuasca.
They passed it to the State level. And even though I live in a progressive state, there is a gross misunderstanding of the difference between Ayahuasca and DMT.
And this is an interesting part of it. All of the court documents in my case lists DMT as the chemical compound. And I don't work with DMT I work with Ayahuasca, and they're different.
It made my blood boil every time I'm standing in a court. The final judge tried to say dyometr-- whatever it is, and she looks at me to finish it. I'm like, I don't know. I don't remember that. I, I literally don't know, like it's, it's not my medicine. That they put the two together, makes me crazy.
Because they're very different. Not just I'm not bashing DMT, it's just, it's Ayahuasca is not that. It has DMT, but that's like saying we're carbon cuz we have it, nope. Way more than that. So, [00:42:00] um, you know, my journey was a four month long, uh, I call it my fear ceremony because I got thrown in jail.
I got to face my, one of my biggest fears, which is having my freedom taken from me. But it was also an opportunity to put into practice all the things that the plants have been teaching me.
When I got to the place, sitting in jail where I no longer was in prison basically where I found my liberation again. I found my internal freedom. Wow. What an expansive, like, haha, you can lock the door, but you can't take what I have worked so hard to claim.
Um, now granted I did not feel that, the moment they threw me in my little jail cell in the door of locked behind me, I was like spiraling down. But I found it and that's why I had to be in there for for a few days. It was only supposed to be a handful of hours and it ended up being a lot longer.
My case has a happy ending. I ended up getting one year probation, and it is what they call the deferred sentence, meaning once that year is up, it goes off my [00:43:00] record.
I can answer the question, have you been convicted of a crime in the future by saying no. And it's considered honest, so it's okay. You know, they put me in a timeout for a year where I can't work with my medicines. And yes, that hurts, but I'm fine.
Because, The second part of your question, I got a big wake up call around what's happening in this country. I thought the decriminalization movement was actually making it safer for everyone to have access to these medicines. And it's not, it's only making it safer for people that are already in the system.
Clinicians, doctors, therapists, people that have to pay $10,000 for a license and be given a gold star to get to administer the medicines, not shamanic practitioners that aren't part of the system. So it's kind of the best analogy I can give you is if somebody gets picked up for maybe performing surgery without a medical license, they're in big trouble.
That is what's happening to shamonic beings like myself. Like even though I spent 10 years [00:44:00] in an apprenticeship, 15 years studying the medicine, you know, that's not considered a worthy rite of passage by the system because I'm playing outside of it. So, it's getting less safe for people like me, mainly for the medicine carriers, not for participants themselves.
Um, but it is gearing up so that in order for us to receive medicines legally, we're gonna have to pay a thousand dollars for a therapist session in a sterile clinical setting to connect with nature. And it's often, almost always not gonna be nature is gonna be synthesized in a lab and charged far more money than it costs to harvest in the wild, the mushroom as an example.
The system's taking over and it's doing what it always does: it's profiting. It's profiting and controlling. And so I needed that wake up call because I was very naive to what was happening.
Kathy: Yeah. Do you hold any hope that it would ever be legalized in a sense that people just get to have a choice [00:45:00] what they do with their bodies?
Kat: For sure because more and more of us are waking up to that sovereignty and the right for everyone else to have that. But the systems in place are gonna have to fall apart, y'know?
The systems that we have that are telling us what doctors we can see and we know that the pharmaceutical industry is running this, not some altruistic, like everyone gets to heal. The systems are gonna have to be dismantled.
The younger generations get this. It's only a matter of time, you know. We know love always wins. So But we're in this like squeeze, right now, the contraction of it, and that's okay. It's how we evolve.
Kathy: I love it that you have such an open and loving space around it. I get so upset over things I just get... you know, and it's not a good oh place to be.
Kat: Oh, me too. Oh, I was pissed. I was mad at the planet like, screw you, I'm standing for you, like, and you throw me in jail?
I, I went into a deep victim story around it, and then had to find my way through it, [00:46:00] which is, the hero's journey. We got thrown into our darkness and we find our way out, and it's okay.
Kathy: Yeah. I, uh, I loved what you talked about. I didn't love it. I just was like shocked by it. How they, assigned the weight of the amount of DMT as what, four and a half pounds or something? Because it was the poundage of the full package of what you...
Kat: Well, and the water weight and the plant material itself. None of that was considered. What they do is like, well, the whole thing is four pounds. It's four pounds of DMT.
Which makes me sound like a horrific drug dealer. When in fact, like my, I, I had the Ayahuasca Defense Fund, which I want to give a shout out to them. They were my guardian angels, like a group of lawyers that are funded by a nonprofit ICEERS to support people like me. And their estimation based on the weight from law enforcement was, it was probably less than a gram of actual DMT, but I was charged with like four something pounds.
It's so crazy, you know? And, and I don't even work with [00:47:00] DMT. So the whole thing was completely bonkers. But that's the system.
Kathy: Yeah. That's so funny that we keep propping up systems that don't make sense. We have laws, but sometimes it's... Anyway, that's a big discussion.
Thanks so much for joining us today. Don't forget there's a whole nother half of the conversation coming up next week. Don't miss it.
Find out much more about Kat Courtney's fascinating knowledge and crazy-ass experiences in the wild spaces of psychotropic plant medicine journeys, and master plant dietas by visiting all her places; you can find her links in the show notes as well as links to jump on my email list so you can get reminders and notifications of when episodes go live, including Part 2 of this.
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