Somatic Healer, Microdosing Guide, Desire Coach, Po-Hong Yu

Meet my guest:  Somatic Healer, Microdosing Guide, Desire Coach Po-Hong Yu.

Po’s work as a Spiritual Guide, Somatic Healer, Plant Medicine Facilitator, and Self Intimacy Teacher has helped many people in their process of healing, embodiment, expansion, and expression. 

I met Po through her Podcast, Tao of Po, where she explores topics that range from healing, energetics, and spirituality, to emotional sobriety, embodiment, intimacy... and much more. I was captivated by her playful, raw, grounded, powerful and big-hearted way of approaching these subjects. 

Po's teachings have their foundation based in Taoism and the practice of surrendering to the divine flow of life with consciousness and receptivity. Her experience as an acupuncturist brings a holistic approach to her work where she integrates the physical, emotional, mental, and energetic realms. She guides people on their path of healing, embodiment, expansion, expression & creation.  All of Po-Hong’s work is devoted to the remembrance of who we are and living from that place. 

She’s a delightful splash of sunshine and you’ll soon see why she’s known for her uncontained laughgasms – when you’re hangin’ with Po, the belly laughs abound. 

Join us as we jump into this relaxed, playful, and informative conversation. We had a lot of fun.

Check out all things Po in these places:
Website: www.taoofpo.com
Listen to the Tao of Po Podcast
IG: https://www.instagram.com/pohong.yu/
FB: https://www.facebook.com/pohong.yu

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Transcript

Somatic Healer, Microdosing Guide, Desire Coach, Po-Hong Yu

[00:00:00] Intro

Kathy: This is Permission to Play a podcast for creatives who sometimes wonder, where the F did my mojo go? My moxie, my marbles. Why am I so stuck, lost, depressed? God. How do I break free? Well, I have something I live by. Think less, play more. This podcast is your permission to play. Together we'll explore all things helpful for the care and feeding of the creative soul.

Welcome. I'm your host, chatty Kathy. 

Keeping it.

Hey guys, welcome back to the podcast. I'm so glad you've chosen to hang out with me today. You know, oftentimes when I think of spiritual teachers or guides, I think of tinkling bells and soft billowing robes. Well, my guest this week is Po-Hong Yu. Po... She's a little different.

[CLIP] 

Kathy: I love that you're human as fuck. That's just probably my, that's probably my, my, favorite line of your whole bio. Right?

Po: Yeah. Let me just get naked right here.

Kathy: Yeah. Right? Oh my God. I was wondering if you might show up naked. I wasn't sure. 

[00:01:27] Po's Bio

Kathy: Po's work as a spiritual guide, somatic healer, plant medicine facilitator, and self-intimacy teacher has helped many people in their process of healing, embodiment, expansion, and expression.

I met Po through her podcast, The Tao of Po, where she explores topics that range from healing, energetics, and spirituality, to emotional sobriety, embodiment, intimacy, and much more. I was captivated by her playful, raw, grounded, powerful, and big-hearted way of approaching these subjects. Her teachings have their foundation based in Taoism, energetics, and the practice of surrendering to the divine flow of life with consciousness and receptivity.

Her experience as an acupuncturist brings a holistic approach to her work, where she integrates the physical, emotional, mental, and energetic realms. All of Po-Hong's work is devoted to the remembrance of who we are and living from that place.

She's a delightful splash of sunshine, and you'll soon see why she's known for her uncontained laughgasms. When you're hanging with Po, the belly laughs abound. Join us as we jump into this relaxed, playful, and informative conversation. We had a lot of fun. 

[00:02:43] Interview Start

Kathy: I just feel so privileged to have you. Thank you. 

Po: Oh, thank you, Kathy. 

Kathy: I've been watching you from the beginning, had my eye on you. I'm like, ooh, who's that? Who's that girl? I see your cute little face on your adorable, um, well, no, it's actually kind of badass, your, your artwork for your podcast. The Tao of Po. First time I saw it, I was like, oh, a little gnome person. And then you opened your mouth. I'm like, holy cow, a giant. She's a giant force. 

Po: That's hilarious. That's so funny. 

Kathy: So I listened to your episode seven, which just was delightful. And I'm not going to tell you what it was if you don't remember exactly.

Po: I don't remember.

Kathy: It's talking about purpose, but we got a whole journey through Po's life, which was just, I love it. I love your stories. 

Po: Thank you. 

Kathy: You talk about your name in there that your mom called you Xiao-Hong.

Po: Oh, wow. Good memory, Kathy. I'm impressed.

Kathy: Well, I don't-- thank you, but I don't know about, I don't know about the pronunciation, 

[00:03:52] Po's Name + Childhood

Po: Pretty good for a first try. Um, yeah Xiao-Hong is my Chinese nickname. So it means Small Red and Po-Hong means Big Red. So in Chinese culture, they add a "small" in front of the part of the name to make it the nickname. And you always call somebody by the nickname when they're younger. So in the Chinese culture, ingrained in the system of names and what you call people is the hierarchy in a way.

Like, you never call your older brother or anybody who's older than you by their name. And even calling my brother, I call him Gege, which is older brother, versus Didi, which is younger brother, right? So there's all these differentiations in the culture of like, respect, really. Yeah, so Xiao-Hong is my Chinese nickname and, I love it. I think it's so cute, actually.

Kathy: It is delightful. But I would love to hear about the journey from Xiao-Hong to Po-Hong.

Po: Oh, wow. So...

Kathy: Can you put that in a nutshell? No.

Po: But that's a great question. I love that question. Kathy. I mean, the first thing that comes up for me is moving from being what felt to me like I was the hub of the family. I was, I was the youngest out of two and I was the first girl on my dad's side of the family for a while.

So it was a big deal. So I was like this really precious thing. That's what I felt so special and so loved. And kind of like the energetic or emotional hub of the family, which also added a lot of other stuff too. Right?

Kathy: Some layers?

Po: Yeah, lots of layers. Pain and expectations, not that they put on me, but what I took on myself. I would say the journey Xiao-Hong Po-Hong is moving from that innocence and this so cuddly little bear to, you know, this out of control, self-destructive teenager, to young woman into Po-Hong, me a woman. My name has been such a major part of my path and evolution, in addition to many other things. But, I probably mentioned in that episode, I honestly don't remember cause never remember what talk about but um, because I'm just like riffing. So, I called myself Stephanie you know, in high school. I changed it, not legally, to that because I wanted to assimilate. I wanted to be like other people. I wanted to fit in. I hated my name for so long. People make fun of it. Hong Po, you know, Hong Chong, like all these... things, right? And I just had a lot of identity issues anyway, to begin with starting at the age of five, when I went preschool, when felt like I different. So I already had that in my system.

So by the time high school came around, oh no, I'm going change to Stephanie. Don't ask me how even came with that name. Um, it's the most, like, American... 

Kathy: Yeah. White girl, white girl name.

Po: Exactly. And most of my friends, I was raised with mostly in black culture. So it was like really a name that was not even connected to what I was doing at the time, or who I was hanging out with. And then in college, I changed my name again, unofficially to Chyna with a Y. It was kind of like, I think subconsciously me trying to like own my culture, but in like a backhanded, like weird way, you know?

And then when I went to China at the age of 25 for the first time as an adult with my dad, I had such a profound experience of connecting with my people. In a way that I had never because I've never been in a space where everybody looked like me, being born and raised in Cambridge, Massachusetts. There wasn't a lot of people, kids that looked like me. So I looked around while I was in the streets of China, and I felt this organic opening and feeling of appreciation and gratitude and love for my people. Even though like, you know, they're like spitting and like, you know, loud and like bumping you and like all this stuff, right?

Um, because we can be like that. But I just felt this undercurrent of such appreciation for the culture. For their power, the history, the medicine, all these, the food, you know, all the things, the, the beauty and the ugliness, all of it. And because of that appreciation and love towards them, I naturally started feeling that for myself. It, it just like started overflowing into me.

And so when I came back to the States, and I was working at a bank at that time, imagine me as a banker, right, at 25. And like this, yeah, in a suit, and you know, they call me Chyna, I had them actually call me in corporate America, Chyna, which is hilarious. But I was like, no, I'm going to have them call me by Po and so, you know, I wasn't yet ready to introduce myself as Po-Hong, but it was a step for me.

And then eventually as time went and I became an acupuncturist in my thirties, that's when I really embraced even more the next level of my identity as a Asian-Chinese American woman, and my name. And so most people do call me Po now, which is fine, I love both, um, but I do want people to know that my name is Po-Hong. And the meaning of it.

Kathy: Yeah. And can you talk about the significance of Red? Po-Hong? 

Po: Yeah, so my dad named me. And Red, as he says, symbolizes, power and love. And so it's interesting how names play such a part for all of us. Like I think for anybody, even if it's a name that maybe doesn't even have a meaning, there's, there's something there. Right? And for me, I was in this path to lead me up into the embodiment of my name. Where I could actually be in that level of power and love.

And when I say power, I don't mean like tough girl or, you know, something like that. More like, just knowing who I am and allowing the life force. To move through me. I see power as life force energy and holding that and using that. So but also the love piece like really learning to love more unconditionally.

And because I was very selfish you know I was very self-centered I had...issues. 

Kathy: God. Jeez. 

Po: I know. 

Kathy: You're selfish? 

Po: I know. I was a hot mess for a long time. 

Kathy: The point is, aren't we all?

Po: Yeah, totally. Absolutely. So yeah, I mean, it was just a process for me to come into myself.

[00:11:22] Po's Parents

Kathy: And can you talk a little bit too about your dad? Actually both your parents, but I love that your dad named you and this name he chose for you. Um, it sounds like, and also just the return, I was going to say the return to China, but really it's, I don't mean that, I mean the return to your roots, to your ancestors, to, it's like home, right?

Po: It really is.

Kathy: Yeah. um, So it seems like your parents played a mighty role in your foundation.

Po: Oh my gosh, yes. I didn't realize it at the time, like many of us when we're young, right? We don't appreciate. And they were very human and they did the best they could. But they gave me such a foundation of love, first and foremost. Like I always felt loved by them. Even when things got really out of control and I was angry at them and they were disconnected and I felt abandoned. Underneath all that I always knew that they loved me.

So that was so powerful first and foremost, but my dad has been my spiritual teacher, since I was probably like 11 or 12. You know, we do these conversations, it felt like church, but it wasn't church. Because we would talk in the laundromat that they owned in Cambridge in the basement. And we just get into these like amazing esoteric conversations about energy and the laws of the universe and, you know, my dad used to be a Jesuit priest before he met my mom. 

Kathy: Mind blowing.

Po: I know. He has an amazing story. I can't wait to have him as a guest on my podcast.

Kathy: Yeah, I saw your little conversation with him on your Instagram. It was, I mean, what a precious moment.

Po: Yes. And I have them all the time with him. 

Kathy: That's lovely. I'm glad you're getting to drink those in. Just keep it up. Gobble up every moment you can. 

Po: Yes. 

Kathy: Oh, I hope you have him on the show. That would be...

Po: I I know. I can't wait. I cannot waIt. Because everybody's he's so adorable. I love him, have him on. I'm like, yes, it's going to happen. It's gonna happen. He's in Beijing. So there's technical issues, but we're working it out, we're going to make it happen one way or or another. 

It's But he's still my spiritual teacher and he just transmitted and injected so many foundational teachings into my system. Even when I was going through my hot mess-ness, you know, for many, many years of being in the shadow and darkness and suffering. Um, he was always this solid tree for me to go back to, to remind me. Of what's true, you know, and to surrender. To really receive and embrace the potency of the moment, whatever it is good or bad, quote unquote. So, yeah, he really laid such a foundation in me and he continues to. He's really taught me the most. He's, he's my main spiritual teacher. And then my mom, she was just such a force of nature.

Not like a typical Chinese woman from that time. You know, she was born in 1941. She's passed, she passed in 2005. Um, but she was so brave. She was a leader and she was a badass and loud. We laughed loud. I get my loudness and my laugh from my mom. For sure. My dad is more introspective and quiet.

Actually my mom was the one who pushed up on my dad after he left the priesthood. Pushed up meaning like she hit on him. She's like, hey, come with me. You're my man, basically. 

Kathy: I love her. 

Po: Yeah, I mean she just was such a force, and fierce nature just moving through her. So I had this juxtaposition of my dad who was super spiritual and like calm and quiet.

My mom's like this bad ass business woman and leader. And then my stepfather came in who was a grandmaster of martial arts and Qigong master Tai Chi master and a Chinese herbalist. They got married around, you know, like 12 or so or 13 when my parents got divorced, not too long before that.

So I was raised in this really interesting family group and they all impacted me in what I would say the common denominator between all of them is service. They all were devoted to being of service. And so that's why I am devoted to that too.

Yeah. I'll tell you, it's fun to see from my outside perspective, the way that those influences have become a confluence in you. And the way that you are so gracefully finding a way to do service to that, you know, to continue it, to put it in the world, to find your voice and bring it forward.

 It's lovely to behold from an outside perspective, not knowing a whole lot about you, but it's so evident, it's evident in just this conversation, in conversations I've heard you have and in what you're putting out through your podcast. So that's pretty cool. 

Thank you.

[00:16:43] Po's "Medicine" - What is It?

Po: One of the things you talked about was your journey to what you're doing now, your medicine. And I would love to talk a little bit about what that is. What is your medicine? You talk about my medicine and what is that?

Hmm. You ask some good questions, Kathy. I would say my medicine is, um, you know, this is, it's a good question because I always have a hard time filtering down my medicine into language. Um, so I'm going to do my best to do that right now.

Kathy: You're welcome. You get, you get to practice.

Po: Yes, that's right. Thank you.

Kathy: I'll edit it down so it sounds really good to, to a little tagline. No, 

I'm 

Po: Right. Exactly. Right.

Kathy: Kidding.

Po: Yeah, we like it messy, you know. We like it organic and natural. I would say that my medicine is love. I mean, if I had to like really boil it down, it is that Big Red medicine, right? It's like this mix between softness and fierceness, this contrast of the two.

 My foundation is Taoism because my dad has really transmitted that to me because he's a Taoist teacher and basically a monk. He lives like a monk. So it's always for me this yin and yang. Softness and power. All these parts that may seem like they don't go together, but they so do.

[00:18:21] The Healing Process Through Embodiment, Expansion, Expression

Po: And so my medicine is really using that energetic frequency to help people to heal on a physical level. When I say that, not just like, not like just illnesses and things like that, but on a somatic level. The trauma that lives in the body. I work in the mystical and magical realm. So a lot of things that I do are connected to energy and supporting people in the healing process and an embodiment process. Expansion and expression. Um, really allowing what's living inside to move through and alchemize. 

Kathy: That's a new concept for a lot of people, I think. 

Po: Alchemy? 

Kathy: Well, not just alchemy, but like, the energetics of the body, even being in touch with your body. I think it's a new thing for many. The idea of allowing the wisdom of the body to talk to you. We're so used to putting our body into the hands of others. Putting our body into the hands of doctors, et cetera, that we, we don't even know that it's talking to us and that it is a, it's a thing. It's an entity, you know?

Po: Yeah, and I see it as part of the divine just like anything else, right? And a lot of times people ignore it because there's so much living inside of it that can be terrifying, yeah. You know, there's so much, and I know this firsthand. The reason why I even facilitate and do this work is because of my own healing journey. I wouldn't be able to do it otherwise. So I know what it's like to be disconnected from my body.

I know what it's like to be disassociated. I've had multiple sexual traumas in my teens and I was really into numbing with alcohol and weed and anything. Gambling, you know, like I would use relationships, you know. A great one is being addicted to suffering. Right? To the thoughts in the mind. The ego spinning. I was addicted to all of that, which I think a lot of people can relate to.

Kathy: Oh yeah.

Po: Um, they might not label it as that, yet. 

Kathy: Or know, or be aware of it, even. I'm suffering, but I don't know why, I don't know what, I, I'm, something's wrong, but I don't, I can't put my finger on it, and they're doing it, right, while they're trying to figure it out. Yeah. 

Po: Yeah. 

Kathy: Mm hmm. I say they, but I'm raising my hand.

Po: Yeah, totally. I hear that, I hear that. Yeah, we're in a human experience and that's really part of the importance I think of the healing and expansion journey is really accepting our humanness and our divinity. That it's both and just like it's yin and yang. It's this, it's all of it.

Can we embrace all of it? And I love that before we started this interview conversation, you said one of my, your favorite lines in my bio is that, uh, I'm human as fuck or something like that, right? 

Kathy: I'm as human as fuck. That's the first line of your bio. 

Po: Because I have a history of wanting to be perfect and to look a certain way and hiding who I really am because of shame and all these protective mechanisms, it's really important for me to practice letting people see the real me. The authentic me. As much as I can, wherever, wherever I am, I do my best.

And part of that is really this approval for my humanness, but also not forgetting my divine connection to source, you know, and so I think a lot of times some people can like weigh one way on one end more than another end. And for me, it's like all about this balancing act and I'm staying open to connecting to both the human and the divine.

Kathy: Right. I don't know a whole lot about Taoism, which was indicated in the very early part of this chat when I said the Tao of Po.

You were really gracious not to correct me. Thank you.

Po: I was going to actually Kathy, but you know, I was like, it's so normal for people to say that. But you know, it's funny, just a little tidbit, because people do appreciate this understanding that, you know, even when people say tofu, in Chinese culture, like a Chinese person will say dofu. Right? Even though it's spelled with a T, so Taoism, yeah, it can be spelled with a D or a T, so it is confusing.

Kathy: Oh my God, I love it when I show myself for my ignorance.

Po: No, no, not at all. I wouldn't consider you ignorant. Even Asians say Taoism, all good 

good 

Kathy: Oh, good. Okay. Well, I can adjust. I can adjust. Um, I wanted to, oh, I, I thought of a quote that I wanted to read to you that came up when you were talking in one of your episodes about the reason that you're able to do the kind of deep work that you do. You say the reason you can do the kind of deep shadow work that you do with people is because you embody love and light. And, and you just said it again a minute ago. And I immediately thought of this quote from Carl Sagan, which is "For small creatures such as we, vastness is only bearable through love. And I thought that was apropos and yet contrasting because you talk about embodying love and light in order to do this deep work and the deep work of connecting to all that is, is so vast that it takes something as vast as love, like to surround us and make us feel safe enough to explore that, that the vastness of who and what we are.

Po: What's that look? 

Kathy: I don't know. I just got way out there for a second.

Po: I love it.

Kathy: I don't know if it was making sense. Yeah. The embodiment of love. I think that's what we're here to learn. 

Po: I think so too. And it's such a learning curve and a process and I'm always still practicing, right? So, uh, I say this all the time, but once I arrive somewhere, I just begin again, right? So it's like...

Kathy: Right? There is no arrive.

Po: Right. Like, I'm like, Ooh... Okay, here we go. 

Kathy: New, new signpost, 

Po: Yeah. 

Kathy: Keeps pointing that way.

[00:25:17] Facing Darkness & Celebrating Growth

Po: Yeah, but it is good to really celebrate and appreciate the growth and these bookmark moments where we're like, oh my gosh, I just expanded, right? But then also knowing that part of the process is the contraction too. But yeah, I really agree with this love piece because everything is alchemized through love, or light or whatever you want to call it. I see them as the same thing. Because in the shadow, when we do shadow work, I think a lot of times people think of shadow work is just like so dark and scary. But it's really we're illuminating parts in the darkness. It's like walking through a cave or a cavern with a flashlight or a lantern, right? And it guides us into wherever the space that we want to enter into or wherever space that actually needs love. Because that's the work when we do, well, when I do somatic work and energy work, it's really about allowing the body to tell the person or me what is ready to arise, what is ready to alchemize. We can't force the light somewhere. 

Kathy: You can't force expansion either. 

Po: No, you can't force healing. You can't force expansion. You can't force any of that. It's in the surrender and the relaxation and the softness and the openness that allows the light to shine through into these places, and allows them to arise. You know, a lot of times people are trying to contain and hold in all of it and then that has its own repercussions. On the body, on your mental state, your emotional state, in your relationships, all of these different ways that come out sideways, because we don't want to feel.

Kathy: Yeah, absolutely. I think sometimes we go into the darkness with with a harsh light, like with a mag light and like scare the monsters instead of coming in with a soft candle. And helping them to recognize, hey, I see you, and I love you, and I accept you. And how can I help you? How can, we connect instead of how can I poke you with a stick, you know, drive you out of my cave? I know I have a relationship with darkness as being a negative thing, as being a scary thing, and I'm only just learning to befriend it and say, no, this is all one.

It's all part of me. And we all go along for the ride, you know, so I don't need to fear it. I just need to embrace it. Not saying I'm there yet, but I'm at least learning how to articulate it so that I can fear it a little bit less. And approach my own healing with a more gentle light. Does that make sense? 

[00:28:18] Inner Child Work

Po: A hundred percent. That's beautiful. I love-- Cuz what you're doing and what you're talking about requires courage, even if it's a candle. It's a courageous act to be loving to ourselves. It's a courageous act. It really is. But with practice, it gets so much easier. It really does. There's a spaciousness that's created that allows for you to show up in that way even more and more for yourself. That's been my experience. And my clients and students experiences too. And I love this point that you're talking about. It's like you're not trying to put this like, you know, big ol' beam of light on it. You're like, Hey friend, you know... This befriending is so important because they're all parts of us. I inner child work, right? I facilitate these kinds of healing sessions and it's all our little ones, and there's all parts. I don't if you're familiar with Internal Family Systems... 

Kathy: I got one. 

Po: Yeah, yeah.

Kathy: I have one. 

Po: Yeah, so,

Kathy: I always say, if you come on my show, you can be going to Chatty Kathy... and friends. Because, we're all here. 

Po: That's good. 

Kathy: all listening. Be nice. 

Po: Yes, exactly. That's exactly like all these different parts of us. And the more generous and kind we can be to each one of them, because they're fractured, you know? It comes together, there's a reconnection, and they're not locked up in a cage. That's at least how I saw my inner child and different parts of myself. She was in a cage in the basement and scared in the corner, and so once I started befriending her, and loving on her, and communicating with her, and listening to her, holding her, holding space for her while she had her rage fits or grief, or frustrations or fear. Then the door of that cage unlocked and she doesn't live in that cage anymore.

Kathy: She can come climb in your lap instead. I had two thoughts while you were talking about this. One was you mentioned recognizing areas where you've expanded noticing when you when you were shifts or expansions. And I was going to say, for me, often I don't realize those shifts until after like the expansion part is kind of painful or I might, experience it as something that I think is negative in the moment and only later do I look at it and say, that was a total growth moment. And, and I think that paying attention to those, identifying them and then realigning your neural pathways to recognize those feelings in the body as, yeah, they're painful or whatever, but this is good. Like reorienting around those feelings. It's so hard, but I think that we can practice that. 

Po: Yeah. 

[00:31:28] Building Capacity in the Nervous System

Kathy: That then we can actually enjoy the expansion while it's happening, instead of... 

Po: Well, first of all that's beautiful noticing. I love that nuance that you brought in. Also, I want to say that expanding our capacity, is pretty much what you're talking about from what I'm sensing. And a lot of times we don't feel worthy of receiving or having or being in joy or feeling good.

This is something that is very common for most people. And everybody has a different level of capacity, based on their life and things like that, and the work they've done. And so for me, it's important to put attention on really allowing me to feel that capacity energetically. I know that might be a little too esoteric or abstract for some people, but seeing where my edges are.

And when good things happen, or when I feel good, or something where I've expanded or grown, really allowing myself to fully appreciate it. Because a lot of people don't want to celebrate the goodness. There's something scary about that, because it could be for different reasons. I know for a lot of people it's like, oh, if I have this, I could lose it. Something like that. 

Kathy: Yeah the other shoe. There's another shoe. It's gonna drop, any second. Yeah. 

Po: Right. But what would happen if we could just really receive and fully let in the growth or the goodness? It just gets better and better from there. But it's, is practice and it requires a certain faith. In my perspective of the process, you know, really trusting this unfolding and that it's messy and imperfect and also perfect at the same time. Feeling good is scary for a lot of people. I can say that for myself. 

Kathy: Yeah it's also easily misunderstood. Like you mischaracterize it in your body. My nervous system is all fucked up. I'm going through a lot of work trying to regain my capacity in my nervous system. I mean it's to the point of like body problems and nerve issues and stuff like that because of storing trauma and not completing processing. Just stuffing instead of allowing anger, allowing whatever. And I think that sometimes your nervous system can get so over-triggered that it can't recognize even joy as a good thing. 

Like for instance, launching this Podcast. Huge, decade long dream. I feel terrified the nervous firing, and like the zinging up and down in the nerves, and my husband said to me when I told him, god feeling so nervous, he said, you sure that's not just happy? Like you're not feeling happy that you're finally doing the thing that you've been talking about for a decade? And I'm like, wait, let me think about that. You know? And it's like, yes I am. I'm happy. That's joy. That's joy I'm feeling. But my body's not even recognizing It. I'm so triggered all the time that my body's saying no, that's terror, that's not good, stop. You know? So it's learning to recognize the energy that's in your body and get the story straight, you know? Does that make sense?

Po: Yes, and this is great because I teach a lot about sensations. It's a conversation I think that not a of people talk about. And for me, I have the perspective of sensations being a magical and mystical guide. And how our body speaks to us. And so for example, when somebody says, I'm anxious, or I'm scared, or something like that... because certain sensations, right, maybe it might be like the heart starts racing, or you might start sweating, or whatever. These kind of physical sensations and symptoms start happening. And so it's the mind has made those sensations to equal anxiety or fear. But, if think about it, what about when go on a second date with a person that you are like totally digging and you have chemistry with, and you could have those same sensations, but now it's like excitement, or exhilaration or something like that. And so it's important to not categorize sensations with our mind. Instead, we can just feel the sensation and just be with the sensation. And you gave a perfect example of that. You had these sensations that you thought were something that they weren't. Your mind wanted to just label them as something, but it was really something else. 

Kathy: Right, right. And what can the response be then, to help body work that out?

Po: People might not like what I have to say because it's so simple. I think the most simplest things are probably the most challenging things for people. Um, because they're like, no, I need more need more information! I more information to understand, but the thing it's not about information. It's about dropping in. It's about presence, it's about being in the moment. It's that simple. And so it is just literally whether you're in movement or in stillness, whatever helps you to be more present, do that. So if you're the type of person who needs to sit down to be with yourself then do that. And just breathe and feel whatever is bubbling up in you. And let it move. Don't try to control it. Don't try to get rid of it, because sometimes what happens is, people will try to get rid of the sensation, right? That's why we'll take medication or, you know, do all these... 

Kathy: Gimme a whiskey. 

Po: Right, right, exactly. Whatever it is, I don't want feel it. I get rid of it. And sometimes people will even use their breath to get rid of a sensation.

Kathy: Interesting.

Po: Yes, because breath is such a powerful tool and so foundational, and I recommend it highly, but it's a nuance. Are you taking these deep breaths, like, trying to get rid of it you don't wanna feel it? Or are you just breathing to bring presence to it?

Kathy: Yeah. Very subtle. Subtle shift. 

Po: Yes, when you can notice these moments of differentiation and discerning, then it literally opens up a whole portal of a new reality.

Kathy: Right. Right. And a cascade of things. Because I think you start to educate your body when you drop in and you're there, because it takes it as a signal of safety. Like if you're here and you're not running out the door, then things might not be as dangerous as your body is perceiving. That's how you build that capacity, because you're with it educating your body.

Po: Exactly. This is 100 percent it. Is that you are expanding your capacity by being with yourself. And feeling whatever it is, rIght? Not forcing the feeling, just being with it gently. Just holding it in that way and... I mean, I get so turned on by this conversation because I just love the nuance of it. Because it's not just one way. You have to bring your attention and focus to it. This how we work the mind. So it's never just about yin or yang. It's always about both. And so, if I had to generally categorize, the body would be yin, the feminine, and the mind would be yang, the masculine. And they work together as one. And so, I'm using my mind also. To make a choice. To choose where I want to put my attention. And then I can do that thing, whatever that is. But what you're talking about expanding the capacity is so important because I talk a lot about learning to build a trusting relationship with yourself and your body learns to trust you. I talk about the body kind of like it's as its own entity in its own way. When you start to do this practice and expand your capacity, the body starts to trust you. Like you said, am I safe? And can I trust you to hold me?

Kathy: Right. 

[00:40:36] Learning to Love & Celebrate Your Body

Po: And then also as the body's learning to trust you that you got it, it's also important for us to thank our body. Because we put our bodies through so much, and still, we don't appreciate it. Majority of people don't have a gratitude practice for their body. Instead, the practice is usually judgment. I don't look good. I don't like how this looks. Or, you know, or I'm in pain. Ugh, my body's acting up. Or, you know, whatever it is. But what if we flipped it and just really loved up and appreciated our body for holding us for all these years.

Kathy: Yeah. 

Po: Keeping us alive.

Kathy: Carrying around on the planet. Yeah. 

Po: Yeah! You know? 

Kathy: the fact that I'm going to celebrate and go tie one on so I can feel like shit the next day. So smart. That's a good way to love our body. 

Po: Yeah. 

Kathy: And yet, it's forgiving. Right? So... 

Po: Exactly. So it's really such a beautiful practice to love on our bodies in this way. And when that happens, they overflow so much and it gives you so much more in return.

Kathy: Yeah. Yeah. I've been trying to integrate little, just little moments, like when I'm putting lotion on in the morning to really like tune into the actual act of it, like almost make it a, ceremony or a a ritual. Where I'm feeling the lotion slide on the skin. Look at my leg as I run my hand up. Be present with the actual physical sensations of being with my body. And then while I'm doing-- it sounds weird, I know, but it's, it's like tuning into the pleasure of that. And, um, to the fact that I'm you know, blessing my skin with some moisture. And what does that feel like? And just being really present with the process instead of just I'm slathering because I got to get on to the next thing, you know, and I don't want to be a, you know, scaly lizard instead. It's like, oh, look at my skin. Wow. This is the biggest organ of my body. Appreciating all the things about it, you know, and then the wrinkles and shit start to kind of disappear. You know what I mean? In my perspective, it's like, oh, you are beautiful. Look at this skin has carried me for almost 60 years. It's just a practice, but I'm finding it's expanding things for me. 

Po: That's so beautiful. That is so beautiful, Kathy. I love that so much. That is ceremonial. 

Kathy: Lifesaver. Yeah, More of life needs to be like that. We're, We're, so rushed. We're so onto the next thing, and so harried and... I've missed large chunks of my life because of that. Where I have no recollection or memory of something. I realized it's because I rushed through my whole, fucking life. I don't pay attention to the little mundane things. You were talking about this in one of your episodes. I think you're, I don't know if it was your surrender or, but the idea of like paying attention to the little moments of your day. Because that's all we have really. If we fly through them, then all of a sudden we're on the other side and looking back at 70 or 80 or 90 years going, well, I don't remember half of that. 

Po: Oh my gosh, I so feel you on this and, you know, it may sound morbid to some people but, since I've been, I guess in my 20s, I would use death as an inspiration and I think this is part of the Buddhist philosophy. I'm not Buddhist but I do resonate with this part of accepting death. And also, I don't have any desire to have regrets. I want to live and be alive as much as I can. Of course, it's not going to be 100 percent and I don't expect that, but I want to be as present as much as I can. And that inspires me. 

Kathy: For sure. 

Po: It inspires me to think about when I'm on my deathbed what's going to be important to me. You know I just turned 47 a few months ago. 

Kathy: No you did not.

Po: I did. 

Kathy: I think you turned like thirty a few months ago. Good Lord, woman.

Po: Asian don't raisin. I love saying that. It just cracks me up every time.

I was so happy when I heard that saying. I was like, yes, I've been looking for something. Nothing rhymes with Asian or Chinese. And then somebody found it and I was like, thank you.

Kathy: That is beautiful.

Po: Yeah. So I use it as much as I can.

Kathy: Hell yeah. 

Po: But yeah, so turning forty seven, something happened for me energetically also because a lot of cycles have closed for me last year, energetic cycles. And I've been feeling into, this is my second half of my life. And it really even brought home what I was saying even more around how do I want to live the second half of my life? I want to be intentional here. I always did, but even more, and that inspires me. 

Kathy: That's good. I love that.

Po: Yeah. 

[00:45:48] Play as Medicine & The Power of Laughter

Kathy: You know, I wanted to ask you about play as medicine. Play is not my default mode. I tend to be pretty intense and want to dive deep and get super granular about esoteric things. Searching for answers and all of that and the Universe keeps saying, man, you need to lighten up because it's a lot about play, a lot of it. And so I'm like, well, what does that even mean? I don't know what that is. And, um, so I'm on that journey of learning what play is. And to me, you seem as deep and wide as you are, in terms of where you go. I still sense like, I think that's what drew me to you is such a playfulness. Like your laugh. Holy cow. Of course, I just did it. I did the cliche. I brought up Po's laugh. You Know? 

Po: That's so, uh, that's hilarious. 

Kathy: But you know, but it's like I tamp play down. You know what I'm saying? I feel like if I ever started laughing, I might never stop. There's so much laughter trapped in my body. I know, and I think part of that is because as a child I was embarrassed about my laugh, I thought it was dorky sounding, so I would laugh. Here's how I used to laugh. 

Po: I wish you all could see her right now. Oh my god, that's so adorable.

Kathy: Years, decades and decades of my life. I'm drooling. It's so bad. I, I haven't started letting my laugh out until this last year. 

this 

Po: So, so literally no sound will come out.

Kathy: Except:[snorts]

Po: Every now and then there'll be a snort.

Kathy: Yes. Cuz it was like my body's like we got to let this out somehow, you know. My kids used to tease me merciless and my husband mercilessly for the snort but it was like something has to come out right?

Po: Yes. 

Kathy: And now my body doesn't recognize that. Like my body's like oh yeah laugh. Don't. You know, hold that in and every once in a while, I'll hit that belly laugh moment. And i, and it starts, like my husband and I had a belly laugh moment in the car the other day. He brings it out of me. He's so great. Uh, and I just had that, that, moment of like feeling like I was just going to blow open, you know, like I was just going to like experience some kind of transcendent thing. And so I found myself like reigning it back in because I keep thinking, oh, if I go there, I'm going to flip over to some other dimension and you won't be able to bring me back because I'll be like letting go of so much. But like, okay, I'm going to shut up now. 

Po: No, I love this. I love this so much. 

Kathy: But you talked about your mom, you're laughing with your mom. And I 

Po: And my dad too, actually me and my dad start cracking up and laugh, it just happens. I don't know where it came from, but it's a part of me. And I just love you sharing this part of your life. I think there's so many people out there that also can relate to this.

I, There's somebody on Facebook. I was laughing and they were like, oh, I love your laugh. I wish I could laugh like that. You know, I wish I could laugh out loud. And I was so surprised because she's so funny and you're so funny. So I just assumed that, you know, you had a good relationship with laughter, but I think there are a lot of people out there that, yeah.

I mean, that's why part of the work I do is around full expression. Because it's so important, like we talked earlier about alchemizing the trauma and pain.

But there's another aspect is just, it's all about just letting it move through, right, the flow and not containing and controlling and contorting.

And so I love this image of you like about to like bust open into another dimension. And like, I so want that for you.

Kathy: Who needs psychedelics? Let's just laugh. 

Po: I mean, it's the best medicine. People ask me, yeah. Cause people are like, oh my God, Po, you look so young. I was like, it's the laughter. It's the laughter. I really believe that's part of it. Yeah. I'm sure I have good genes or whatever. But,

um,

Asian don't raisin, baby. But the laughter really is such an alchemizing force because there's love innately in that energy.

Kathy: Yes.

Po: And so, yeah, for me, I've always been connected to my laughter, even though I had so many moments. Decades of shadow and darkness, but even in that there was something in me that couldn't hold it in and like, it can be obnoxious. Like my laughs can be so crazy. Like if I get on a roll, if I'm having a laugh gasm, cause I'm all about the gasms, right?

Food gasm, orgasm, laugh gasm. All the gasms. And so laughter is just one of them. And I literally will be hollering like so loud, like screaming. I can't control my body. My whole face is hurting. My stomach is cramping, but I'm loving it. It's just like, it's so good. 

Kathy: But think of what it's what it's drenching your body with, like the opposite of cortisol. What is it? It's dopamine, right?

Po: Oxytocin or... 

Kathy: Yeah. Just 

Po: Serotonin, dopamine, 

Kathy: washing you. 

Po: All the good stuff. Yeah. 

[00:51:18] Embracing Your Woo Boner

Kathy: I often think about media, movies, and comedy, we poke fun at all of this woo. You know, I say this probably in every chit chat I have with people, but I say I'm a closet woo. You know, I'm always, I'm usually walking around with a woo boner, but I don't want anybody to know it, you know, 

Po: Oh my God, it's so good. 

Kathy: And, and it's like, oo, you know, covering myself up. But, um.. Because our culture makes so much fun of all of this, especially with the whole, the New Age Movement and all the stuff. We poke fun at the woo and the esoteric language but... There's such treasure in it that we could all, it's for all of us.

 So allowing the emotions to manifest, allowing them to be out there, like you say, my laugh can be obnoxious. Well, by what standard? Is your laugh obnoxious? Certainly not the standard of the whole of the universe. The whole of the universe is like, fucking-A laugh, you know, it's like, it's so big.

And, but we've dialed it all down to fit it into this meat suit. And then on top of that, we've layered all of our cultural boxes and niceties and like, let's put a tie on it and keep it all buttoned up. And then by way of, circumventing the uncomfortableness of it, then we poke fun at it. So people are embarrassed about their moments of expression. I'll shut up and let you riff, because it's...

Po: No, this is great. 

Kathy: We need to be more free. Yet we're just so constipated with embarrassment, fear, and, like, proper behavior, and dignity, and, you know. And it results in cancer and all the other shit.

Po: Yes. Yeah. And yeah, a lot of suffering one way or another. And I think what you said earlier is just nails it on the head, which is like this playing, you know? Really connecting to play. And that's why I love inner child work. Because inner child work isn't just to heal trauma and pain. It's also to reconnect with your little one, and you know, the way they were were when they were young. Or if they didn't have much play as a little one. How they wanted to play if they could have. 

Kathy: Or if they always just played alone.

Po: Right.

Kathy: Maybe wanted a playmate. 

[00:53:37] Growing Down - How Aging Makes Room for Playfulness

Po: Oh, yes. Yeah, 100%. There's a lot of that. I think my dad for sure has been an inspiration for me because, you know, he's human. He's not perfect. And I have observed him shift and grow over the decades. And...

Kathy: How old is your dad now? 

Po: He's 91.

Kathy: 91.

Po: Yeah and he has gotten more playful the older he gets. I feel like the more free you are, the more you are not confined by the conditionings that you have talked about, the more youthful you become.

He literally becomes more and more youthful the older he gets and and playful and just like light, you know, and not this dense heavy energy. So, can we give ourselves permission?

Kathy: Yeah, and we poke fun at that too. We poke fun at our elders as they grow down. You know. We, we call that, well, I mean, dementia, it's a real thing because I've seen it and I've seen it take a really horrible course. But we sometimes think that that playfulness that people are reconnecting with in their elder years, we sometimes point at that and think of it as somehow lesser or inferior instead of recognizing its connection to something much bigger. And honoring that and maybe joining in with it a little bit.

Po: Yes, I so love this about elderly people is when they're connected in that way. It really inspires me a lot and I think also kind of bringing it back to the beginning of how in Chinese culture, we are taught to respect elders, that adds a whole another element to it that I don't always see in the States.

Um, but yeah, I love me some elderly people. They're so adorable. And I just, I just want to squeeze them up. 

Kathy: Yeah, I just wish that we could all connect more with that childlike playfulness.

Po: Yeah. Cause you know, kids, they're so real.

Kathy: Oh my God.

Po: So real. So in the moment that they don't hold back, they're playing whatever it is, they inspire me too. I feel like these two ends, you know, the, the elderly and the young kids, like there's so much to learn there.

This is a great conversation. I'm so appreciating all of what we're talking about and your perspective on everything. It's so deep and I'm so excited about this aspect of play that you're bringing.

[00:56:22] Play & Creativity

Kathy: That's why I want to have these conversations; I want to know how do you play? We creatives, we get all screwed up because of our minds. The left side of the brain wanting to come in and organize everything and make everything perfect. That lost connection with our inner kid, you know, who was the playful one, the imaginative one, the one that had no, no borders or limits. And we lose touch with that. And it gets crowded out of the way by expectations around our creativity and around art and the marketplace, and competition, and trying to make a living and, all of that. We just get squashed. For me doing this podcast was to bring folks on that clearly play, and try to explore how can we make space for our creativity to come through?

Po: The first thing that comes up for me is something that I've been sitting with a lot lately is this idea of... Because I noticed that there's a lot of these collective waves of energy, right? Where the masses are following a certain way of doing things and it becomes habitual or unconscious. And they're just doing it because it seems like that's the right thing to do. For me playing is about really tapping into what is true for me. Not following the masses, and some people may consider me rebellious. I am not rebellious. I'm just listening to my inner knowing and guide. So when we move away from that collective wave of energy, then we're left with our self and our sovereignty and discernment and really tapping into what's important to us.

I think it creates more space for that playfulness. Because when we're like, weighed down by these ideas or competition, things like that, like you're saying, and making that priority over ourselves, then there's no space to play. There's no space to take care of ourselves in ways that seem radical, honestly.

[00:58:40] Going Against the Flow - Step Out of the Crowd

Kathy: Yeah. What is stepping away look like to you?

Po: The first thing is always awareness, consciousness, really noticing. I'm doing this thing right now. My mind, my ego is attaching to this idea or I'm noticing that I'm not following my truth, something feels off. So just really noticing what is happening in the mind and acknowledging it and illuminating that and then choosing to do something different, while at the same time, doing that embodiment work that we were talking about earlier. Again, it's the both mind and body work and connecting with the divine. When we can start to do this practice, I think, in all these different holistic ways, then the space opens. That's to me is everything. Is creating the space.

Because if a lot of times people are so like suffocating the space. Whether with distractions, busyness, avoidance, or whatever it is that there's just, there's no place to even maneuver in there, right? To experiment and to be curious. So I think stepping away really is just making a choice and like seeing and making a choice to do something differently. And that could look different ways for different people in different moments.

Kathy: Right. Yeah. There's no, like, handbook that says, or equation or formula.

Po: Right, exactly. And I think a lot of times people want that formula, and that's why there's so much, um, consumption of information, right? And, and that consumption of information isn't really going to satisfy what you're looking for because the answer is really inside.

Kathy: It's all inside you. Yeah.

Po: Yeah, can we choose to just be with ourselves so that we can listen to whatever that direction is. Our knowing is trying to tell us.

[01:00:51] The Role of the Healer

Kathy: Yeah. What is the role then of someone like you, who is a healer and a practitioner and a guide, what is the role there and when does that role end? Cause I think people get addicted to gurus and guides and helpers and therapists and all of that. So I just wonder... I think I've asked the question.

Po: I think that my role is to remind you to trust yourself and to, I mean, there's so many different levels of it, but one is okay, you're focusing your attention on the external. Can you turn this arrow around internal? Because that's a lot of times what's happening is people are looking for the answers on the outside.

So reminding them that it is inside and to do this work of awareness and listening and feeling and being with ourself. Um, That's definitely one of it. But also the facilitation is guiding them into the feeling. So the more nuanced part is taking them into places that they are willing to go. For instance, like inner child work.

Holding space for them to feel their sensations and allowing what wants to arise in the memories of the body to come up.

And a lot of times people have a hard time being in this practice on their own because either they don't know how to do it, or they're having a hard time focusing and dropping in on their own because they're so used to and habitually in distraction mode. And so, I, being with somebody, whoever it is who's holding and facilitating, it's like keeping them accountable in the practice that they may continue to like say, Oh, I don't have time for this or forgetting to do it. Because it really all comes down to one, seeing the awareness and also the practicing.

And so I support them in both of those areas. And then when they feel complete, they can practice on their own, right? So then they can just integrate and practice on their own whenever they feel ready. And then they come, come back, you know, so it's just, it's a fluid relationship. Does that make sense? 

Kathy: Yeah, it totally does. And also creating a safe space and a safe container that they can work inside of until they get used to being with those things.

Po: That's so key. I've always heard from people, since I was young, even when I was in the darkest of moments in my teens, a common thread was, people just tell me their darkest secrets, like I'm a secret holder, just naturally people share because they innately just trust me and feel safe with me.

And so that's a big part of it. If someone doesn't feel safe, they will not do that work with you. No matter what they'll just be resistances and resistances. So, creating a safe container looks different ways. For me, it's presence, them knowing that I am with you 100 percent in this moment. And also boundaries.

 I have worked really thoroughly through my people pleasing, my rescuer, my martyr, my codependence and safety is not created in people pleasing.

Kathy: Right.

Po: It's about really holding this pole of, I am emanating love and holding space for you, but I'm not going to try to rescue you.

Kathy: Right.

Po: Because nobody needs rescuing, nobody needs fixing, nobody needs any of that.

And even if they don't know it on a conscious level, if you as a facilitator or holder of space is trying to rescue or fix, the person will naturally feel a mistrust.

Kathy: Right. Well, there's a little bit of ego that can come creeping into that, right?

Po: Well, that's the thing. Yeah. So the work of...

Kathy: I'm the savior. 

Po: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that was a huge piece for me because that's how I got my value when I was younger. That's how I felt worthy. And so I had to do a lot of rewiring of this fixing, savior, rescuer, martyr part of me. So what that means is as a holder of space, you got to hold clean space, you know, constantly doing the work ourselves to notice if we're getting in the way.

Kathy: Right.

Po: Right? So anytime I'm facilitating or holding space for like a medicine journey, a plant medicine journey or any kind of medicine journey. I'm constantly in my awareness of, am I clear and clean? And am I, am I, is my ego getting in here?

Constantly. So as a facilitator and holder, we are expanding in our holding because we're in the practice so often. 

Of being in a right relationship with your ego. Like, You know yourself.

Exactly. And this has been many years. Cause you know, I've been an acupuncturist since I graduated in 2011 and I noticed that's when I first started really practicing because I would notice myself giving my patients advice on meditation, for example, but I wasn't meditating. And so this was my first inkling of calling myself out. I had to be honest with myself, like, yo, Po, what are you doing? You're not being real here. You're just trying to fix them, but you're not doing the work here. And so every person that I work with is like a mirror, right? I get to see myself in the way that I'm holding space for them.

So it's such a blessing because I get to serve and be generous and support people. And at the same time, I get to expand. In that process. It's super cool. 

Kathy: It is cool. How'd you get that job?

Po: I know. It ain't easy though. 

Kathy: Why would you wanna give up your suit for that? 

Po: Know, right? Oh my god. I can't believe I wore a suit. But you know, it's so beautiful because like I talked about boundaries is so important part of this because also as a space holder and somebody who's empathetic, right? It's easy to take on energy. 

And so it's, it's important to have those healthy, loving boundaries for all kinds of reasons.

Kathy: Absolutely. Yeah, I can see how that could be a big one.

Po: Yeah. And I used to take on a lot. I used on a lot and I would be tired and my body would hurt and all these kinds of things. And so, you know, this was the work. It was the martyr, the rescuer, this part of me was such a major part of my stepping into being a medicine woman that is truly, really truly doing that because anytime we're trying to rescue, it's actually backfiring.

And there's a lot of people who are doing this kind of work that are trying to rescue. And I talk a lot about victim consciousness and the victim triangle which is the victim, the rescuer, and the perpetrator. And how we can notice when we're on that triangle. And how being honest with ourselves about that is the key first. Because I was in victim all the time to like we become perpetrators and rescuers and victims all the time.

This is just a natural cycle that we go through, depending on what experience we're going through. And so, can we keep it real with ourselves? You know, be like, Oh shit, I'm totally like in victim mode right now or whatever it is. 

Kathy: Yeah, that takes a lot of self awareness and constant work, I think.

Po: It's constant work. 

Kathy: Always revisiting where you're at.

[01:09:06] Why So Serious? Life as a Game

Po: Yes. And you know, when you talked about play, I see it as a game, you know, like a lot of people might be like, Oh my God, this is so much work. It's a lot. And to me, yes it is, it's work, and it's a practice, but if we bring play into it, it's like, Oh, it can be an experiment. We can enter into it with another perspective of curiosity and exploration, like one, like a childlike wonderment, right?

Oh, when, when I, I noticed this and then this happens. Oh, that's so interesting. Or, you know, like just, entering 

Kathy: Curiosity. 

Po: Yeah, and it's play, it becomes playful and the more, I mean it didn't feel like that at the beginning, trust me, so I'm not saying it's always like that but, it can be more and more like that.

Kathy: Yeah. I'm trying to see life like in general that way more. And the more I do contemplate that or allow that in, the easier life gets, honestly. I mean, to just recognize that, it all could be actually a game. We don't know... You know, it 

Po: Well, I mean, the Matrix... 

Kathy: Right? Yeah. You know, I mean, we don't know, we can't prove anything. So why not entertain that idea that it's, and if you look at nature, Oh my God, the playfulness and the creativity just within nature itself, it screams playful. It screams like, Oh, let's try this. Oh, that's weird. Why not think of life that way in general so that we can lighten up a little bit, you know? 

Po: Yes.

Kathy: Even in the face of things that seem horrifying and wrong and maddening and unfair and unjust and all of that, if you, for me, if I can pull that camera back even further and say, what would this look like within a wider context of, a game? It's all, it's all, um, I don't know, I don't want, I don't know, that's getting a little too wide right now. 

Po: No, there's an important piece in this in that, you know, the more we expand our capacity, the more we can hold opposite ends of the pole at the same time. For example, I can be in deep grief and in deep gratitude and joy at the same time, right? They seem like they're opposite, but really when we are present and allow things just to move naturally and organically through us, then we do have this, this range of being able to feel different things at the same time. That's been a really profound experience for me. And I know it's possible.

Kathy: Yeah, that's where the capacity building is so key. And it's possible, right? Tell me it's possible, Po.

Po: Yeah, it's possible. I only can say that because I know for myself, I've experienced it, you know, like I have, I've been in the depths of major grief and then also feeling so like, like, such a deep divine connection to source and love and gratitude. And I'm like, Oh my God, this is so wild. This is so wild. And then I started feeling like, oh wow, life is full of so many possibilities that we don't have to box it in. Maybe there's no box at all.

Kathy: That's a little scary for some of us. But yeah, the idea that there's no box like that can feel like unmooring. I'm lost at sea, but...

[01:12:45] Meeting Yourself Where You Are & Celebrating

Po: Yeah. But you know, bring you back to what you were saying earlier. This is about meeting ourselves with where we are, you know, I've been in practice deep practice like committed devoted practice for significant amount of time. And it's been my life. It's been what my life is about.

And so people who are just beginning, or wherever they are on their path. It's not about saying, oh, this is where she is, I'm not there yet, you know, cause that can happen a lot and then they give up or have this pressure that they put on themselves. It really is about what you said this candlelight, right? And meeting yourself where you are and being gentle and making a one degree shift versus a 90 degree shift or 1 percent versus 90 percent or 50 percent you know, it's just like, just being really kind and patient and gentle with ourselves moment to moment. And it has a cumulative effect.

Kathy: Yeah. Well, 1%, depending on what lens you have on can be huge, you know? 

Po: Yes. And a lot of times people only want to celebrate when it's like something big or what they perceive to be a big deal. But I recommend that people celebrate those 1%, half a percent moments where you made a choice or shifted or grew in ways that maybe are new or different.

That you may not have done before. If you can celebrate and have gratitude for each of those little tiny moments. Oh my God. Game changer. 

Kathy: Yeah. And that's why presence is so important because you won't see them if you're still in your stories. And you miss the, those moments of opportunity to celebrate what life is about. It's those moments. It's a hard concept, but once you get that little taste of, oh, that's being present. Oh my God. It's like a little hit of something, you know, where you just suddenly are in your body and you're just here right now and you, there's only this. There's not all that other crap that I'm telling myself there is there's just this. Boy. Oh boy. That's the new kind of crack for me. It's like oh give me more of that. Then of course you have to do that 300 million times a day. How many moments are there in a day?

Po: Totally.

Kathy: You know, but this won't make my teeth fall out right? I can keep hitting on it and hitting on it hitting on it, right?

[01:15:13] Life Can Be Meditation

Po: That's so good. That's so good. It's meditation. Truly. It's all a meditation. It's a living meditation. It's the same idea of like, anytime we meditate, I just talked about this on my recent episode, a lot of times people say, oh, they're a bad meditator. They don't know how to meditate. It's like, no, we're always going to have thoughts. Just accept the fact that that's how the mind works.

And if we can accept that, then there's more compassion there. And when we do sitting meditation or walking meditation, we notice that there's a thought and we just bring ourselves back into the moment. 

Kathy: It's about the returning. 

Po: It's the returning. And we just do that throughout the day, right? We bring this meditation practice into our everyday moment to moment experience. And we might not do it all the time and that's okay, you know, 

Kathy: Yeah, We get to start over.

Po: Yes. 

[01:16:06] Ways to Work with Po

Kathy: Yeah. Yeah. Do you ever do like, I'm gonna ask you two more questions that can be, they don't have to go super deep or long. And you can answer them in whatever order you want. Do you ever do laughing sessions with people? And second is what are you offering to people? How can people, work with you and what does that look like?

Po: Oh boy, you know, this is so great because I've been pondering and like thinking about doing laughing sessions for a while because people for years have been saying, I know Po like the thing I know about Po the most or love about Po the most is her laugh, right? That's always a common theme. Um, but I have not done that. I don't know how I would do that. But I'm open to that exploration because, based on what you say and other people have said, I think it's really a beautiful offering and service, you know, so yeah, stay tuned. That may happen. And other offerings I have, I do group programs for women.

I do in person deep dives or VIP sessions. And they range. And I also do one-on-one long term containers. I do all kinds of different containers, but it can range from like plant medicine, to deepening your connection with divine, with your body. So I would say that, you know, you guys just tune into my social media, whoever's listening, or check out my website, follow my podcast. I will be sharing any offerings there that are new. 

Kathy: Yes, it's called the Tao of Po.

Po: There you go. T A O O F P O. I know, it's so confusing. But yeah, all kinds of self intimacy experiences. Yeah, yeah. 

Kathy: You're making my eyebrows go up and down.

Po: This is an important, this is the body work that I'm talking about, like really falling in love with your body and taking care of your body in a different way and connecting with your sensuality and your sex and connecting with the parts of you, the inner child, the sensations, the emotions, the pleasure, the pain, all of that.

And then soon, I think I'm going to be creating a container for full expression, which may include some laughter sessions. Now that I think about it. So thank you for that.

Kathy: This has been a joy. 

Po: Yeah, it really has. 

Kathy: Thanks for spending the time with me.

Po: Yeah, thank you for having me.

[01:18:48] Outro

Kathy: Thanks so much for joining us today. If you enjoyed this conversation, please come back for more. I've got some really interesting and inspiring guests on tap for upcoming episodes. I've got award-winning authors, actors, more plant medicine people, nervous system experts, just a smorgasbord of goodness and curiosity.

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Thank you so much, my friends. It means so much that you chose to spend your time with me today. Be well and remember to think less, play more. Grant yourself permission to play.